{"id":818,"date":"2013-11-08T17:22:33","date_gmt":"2013-11-08T21:22:33","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/rjr.richardross.annaerossi.com\/?p=818"},"modified":"2013-11-08T17:23:48","modified_gmt":"2013-11-08T21:23:48","slug":"var-_gaq-_gaq-_gaq-push_setaccount-ua-25646250-2-_gaq-push_trackpageview-function-var-ga-document-createelementscript-ga-type-textjavascript-ga-40","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/rjr.richardross.annaerossi.com\/?p=818","title":{"rendered":"<script type=\"text\/javascript\">  var _gaq = _gaq || []; _gaq.push(['_setAccount', 'UA-25646250-2']); _gaq.push(['_trackPageview']);  (function() { var ga = document.createElement('script'); ga.type = 'text\/javascript'; ga.async = true; ga.src = ('https:' == document.location.protocol ? 'https:\/\/ssl' : 'http:\/\/www') + '.google-analytics.com\/ga.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(ga, s); })();  <\/script>  <\/heat> Jacob Wrestles with God &#8211; Held on Sunday, November 03, 2013"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><b>Outline of Session held on 11\/03\/13<\/b><\/p>\n<ol>\n<li>Previous Week\u2019s [10\/27\/13] Review<\/li>\n<li>Background to today\u2019s Reading<\/li>\n<li>Reading<\/li>\n<li>Discussion<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><b>Previous Week\u2019s [10\/27\/13] Review<\/b><\/p>\n<p>Last week\u2019s web post was food for thought as we opened of our conversation this Sunday.\u00a0 I had focused attention on a great insight that Ken expressed.\u00a0 As is my custom, I followed up Ken\u2019s thought with a question.<\/p>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 30px;\">There is so much in what Ken thought and said.\u00a0 We need to realize though that there is a huge assumption in Ken\u2019s thought.\u00a0 We can only experience \u201cit\u201d through the \u201cBook\u201d if we \u2026 at this point I wonder if you can complete the sentence.\u00a0 If we what?<\/p>\n<p>To that question, Mark responded, \u201cWe can only experience \u201cit\u201d through the \u201cBook\u201d if we \u2026 can comprehend what &#8220;it&#8221; is trying to convey.\u201d\u00a0 Mark followed up with his own question, \u201cIf we cannot comprehend &#8220;it&#8221; fully, does this mean it thus remains a story to one whom still tries to believe? \u201c<\/p>\n<p>In both his answer and his question Mark was thinking about \u201ccomprehending,\u201d or in other words, understanding. \u00a0But in my answer, I used the word \u201cbelieve.\u201d We believe many things that we don\u2019t understand, and certainly don\u2019t understand fully. \u00a0We aren&#8217;t doing the same thing when we believe and we understand.\u00a0 If we take believe, not in a religious sense, but rather to mean something we haven\u2019t figured out for ourselves but accept on the authority of someone else about 98% of what we know, in this sense, we believe. Everyone believes in that sense, even scientist.\u00a0 We accept the doctor\u2019s authority that someone has cancer, even though we don\u2019t know what cancer is.\u00a0 In fact, the scientific community has spent decades trying to understand what cancer is; hundreds of thousands of scientists over decades, learning more and more but not understanding fully what cancer is. \u00a0We also believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; even though we don&#8217;t understand that fully, and never will.<\/p>\n<p>At this point Ken expanded the conversation by sharing an experience he had on the Internet just this past week.\u00a0 Someone in a post referenced an audience\u00a0 in Waco TX booing Bill Nye the Science Guy for saying that the moon reflects light from the Sun, it doesn\u2019t shed light itself.\u00a0 The post went on to say how the audience made up apparently of Christians who, in taking the Bible in a literal way, understood the Moon to be a source of light and, therefore, felt that Bill Nye was contradicting the bible.\u00a0 The person making this post wanted to show how these Christians don\u2019t understand even the most basic facts of science.\u00a0 Ken responded with his own post.\u00a0 He argued that the authors of the bible couldn\u2019t possibly know about the science of the moon since they wrote thousands of years before the birth of modern science.<\/p>\n<p>In response, I wanted to point out that those who booed not only didn\u2019t understand science they didn\u2019t understand the bible either.\u00a0 As we have said for years now, the bible was written by people of faith, to people of faith, for the sake of their faith.\u00a0 It is not a book on astronomy, nor on physics, nor on what modern science means by cosmology; it doesn\u2019t have any modern chemistry in it, etc.\u00a0 It is historical, in the sense that it was written at particular times in particular places but it isn\u2019t history in the modern sense of a critical effort to recover and report what was happening in the past.\u00a0 In much of the religious world, not just Christian, but \u00a0in the Jewish world, the Muslim world, etc., what often divides their views of the world, their thinking has more to do with accepting or rejecting a modern historical account of the very composition of their holy books. \u00a0Strong emotions prevail on both sides of this divide.<\/p>\n<p>Again a discussion that took more time than I expected but it is further evidence of the wonder and beauty of a group feeling free to say whatever is on their mind, because it is what they are thinking and, at the same time, being open to what the other is saying even if it is different from their thinking.<\/p>\n<p><b>Background to today\u2019s our readings.<\/b><\/p>\n<p>This episode raises so many questions.\u00a0 In a single sentence we learn that Jacob, alone at night near the water\u2019s edge, wrestles all night with a stranger; neither prevails.\u00a0 Daylight approaches and in a series of dialogues, two initiated by the stranger and one by Jacob, we learn much of the meaning of this event.\u00a0 Yet questions remain.<\/p>\n<p>Who is this stranger? An angel, a messenger from God, God himself.\u00a0 If God, who is this God who wrestles the night, does not prevail, strikes Jacob, leaving him with a limp, and changes his name.<\/p>\n<p>There is no question that the wrestling was physical but, nonetheless, it is spiritual too.\u00a0 And why is this passage inserted into the narrative that had as its seeming focus a meeting between Jacob and Esau.\u00a0 It is as though our author wants to make sure we know that if we are to meet our brother to resolve our differences we must first meet our God, work t;hings out with God and not without a price.\u00a0 The power of this Book to tell stories that transcend their own times to reflect light on our times, anyone\u2019s\u00a0 time, eternal.<\/p>\n<p><b>We are reminded as we listen to \/ read the passages to wonder <\/b><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Who are the characters in the story<\/li>\n<li>What role do these characters play<\/li>\n<li>What is the plot of the story, the author\u2019s intent<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><b>Reading: Gen. 32: 23 \u2013 33: Jacob wrestle with God.\u00a0 <\/b><a href=\"http:\/\/usccb.org\/bible\/genesis\/32\">http:\/\/usccb.org\/bible\/genesis\/32<\/a><\/p>\n<p><b>Discussion<\/b><\/p>\n<p>Tim couldn\u2019t help but reflect the ambiguity of the story itself.\u00a0 Who is this man?\u00a0 Failing to succeed in this wrestling match; yet has the power to strike his hip, leaving Jacob with a new limp.\u00a0 Kai wondered why he didn\u2019t strike him at the very beginning.\u00a0 Mark could not believe that God did not have the power to simply wipe Jacob off the face of the earth if God so choose.\u00a0 Then he said something that was critical, maybe God was just playing, pretending.\u00a0 That observation exists in Mark, but there is no evidence in the story that \u201cthe man\u201d is just pretending.\u00a0 All the evidence is that wrestling was real, the limp was real, it could have been different but it wasn\u2019t; that is just a fact within the story.\u00a0 God is not pretending.\u00a0 A new image of God was beginning to be formed in Mark.<\/p>\n<p>At this point Jodie, having read the notes, suggested that the Angel was carrying out a command from God. \u00a0She felt that Jacob was really asking a confirmation of what he already knew; I have seen the face of God and lived.<\/p>\n<p>Faryl wondered if Jacob was familiar with the broader cultural account of similar stories.\u00a0 I responded that I was not aware of any evidence in the story or in any other material that could support Jacob knowing such matters.\u00a0 Faryl respond but if he did \u2026 I reiterated that since Faryl\u2019s \u201cif\u201d is not supported by any other evidence then it remains a thought within Faryl.\u00a0 We have great power to suppose just about anything and at the same time we desire not just to understand but to know if what we understand is true, is real.<\/p>\n<p>Heber thought at the beginning being alone and in the dark Jacob was hallucinating; but when he was struck so that he ended up limping he knew that this wrestling was physical, was real.<\/p>\n<p>Ken believed that the event is both physical and spiritual.\u00a0 At the end of the story all that is left is Israel physically impacted by his encounter with God.<\/p>\n<p>We moved to discussing the dialogue that occurred between the man and Jacob.\u00a0 I would ask you to reflect on each part of the dialogue separately.<\/p>\n<p>V. 27: the notion of daybreak can be a reflection of an early period in which demons lost their power at daybreak but it also can be a reflection that no one can live and see the face of God.\u00a0 Jacob ever in need of a blessing \u2026<\/p>\n<p>V. 28 \u2013 29: normally a change in name is a divine action implying a change in the very identify of the individual.<\/p>\n<p>V. 30: Jacob\u2019s request to know the name is not granted; it won\u2019t be until Moses that we learn the name of God.<\/p>\n<p>I would also suggest that you read Mk. 10: 35 \u2013 45: <a href=\"http:\/\/usccb.org\/bible\/mark\/10\">http:\/\/usccb.org\/bible\/mark\/10<\/a> to see if you can discern a pattern when James and John ask for a blessing and they too are told about drinking the cup, be baptized with the baptism that Jesus was baptized.<\/p>\n<p>You are invited to respond to these or other questions that might arise within you as you read this passage.\u00a0 Your comments, observations, questions are welcomed.\u00a0 See \u201ccomment\u201d link below<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Outline of Session held on 11\/03\/13 Previous Week\u2019s [10\/27\/13] Review Background to today\u2019s Reading Reading Discussion Previous Week\u2019s [10\/27\/13] Review Last week\u2019s web post was food for thought as we opened of our conversation this Sunday.\u00a0 I had focused attention &hellip; 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